You know? Totally.
Why, hello there, internet!
Lots to say, as usual, not much time to say it, as usual. But right now I’ve got a Noodle-cat on my lap and some nice honeybush tea on my desk and old, old, old M. Ward on the record player—everything feels just right. Let’s chat a little.
First of all, as someone who watches a fair amount of TV on the computer while working, I was excited about this new Wanda Sykes show. As Jon Stewart put it: “…Wanda Sykes is going to be starting up her own late night talk show—wait, that’s got to be a misprint, she’s not a white man. Well, I guess now we’ve seen everything.”
I had high hopes (my crush on Wanda is long and deep), but it seems to be sort of a Real Time with Bill Maher minus the Bill Maher creep factor plus more cheesiness and with, let’s just admit it, crappier guests. And her rah rah Obamaism was tiring after just one episode, though why I expected anything more from a mainstream talk show I’m not sure.
I guess I shouldn’t be surprised when a truly interesting figure gets a bit of a handhold in the “real world” and all her quirkiness is completely tamped down…but come on Wanda, I think you can do better. (And if you can’t, I’ll keep watching just because you’re so freaking cute.)
In other feministy zeitgeistey culturey news, I was fascinated to read this Feministing post all about where The Wire gets it wrong when it comes to gender. I don’t completely agree—Kima!—but it is food for thought, for sure.
Speaking of Feministing, a site I’m partial to (and have advertised the Bonbons on), it is currently being boycotted by those who believe that the Feministing crew are horrible transphobic ableist racists.
I dunno. I don’t really buy it.
Some random thoughts on the whole mess which will probably get me in a lot of trouble with very few people and not make much sense to people not intimately familiar with the site (to learn what the hell I’m talking about, click the links mentioned here. Thanks to Facebook friend JC for the heads up, and I hope we can still be pals though we disagree!):
- To be honest, it truly seems like a whole lot of the left punching itself in the eye, which is, of course, our favorite activity. Oh infighting, where would we be without you?
- That said:
- Jessica Valenti, the face of the site (though I know much has been done to change this by bringing in a much more diverse editorial staff) has never, in my eyes, been that interesting or deep. She’s just….fine. She’s the Ms. Magazine of my generation—nice, slightly boring, slightly simplistic, but a good cheerleader to bring intimidated stupid people to the big bad F word. But there is a LOT to Feministing besides her, so if her, like, white middle class privilege worries you, you don’t actually have to read her posts or her books.
- Claims of extreme transphobia and hostility toward trans women on the site: I can’t claim to have read all of the long long long threads that the pages I’ve seen link to (and if you have specific examples of the perceived horrible treatment of trans women on the site, I’d like to see them), but man oh man! Trans issues are complex for a lot of cisgender people, myself included, and I appreciate Feministing’s attempt to work through the more nuanced and complicated aspects in an inclusive way. Also, it seems that most of the problems people are having take place in the comments, and it seems ridiculous to blame the site for that.
- Also, why boycott? Why not hop on the comments thread and make your views known? I know people feel like they have and that the staff isn’t listening, but walking away is a silly way to respond. Isn’t feminism about dialogue? You don’t like the way one of the biggest feminist websites is run? Keep talking about it until it changes, people. My god–what do you do in the real life when you don’t like something, just walk way to a “safe space” where no one disagrees with you? (Yes, that’s what I do, but I’m not the one complaining.)
- And people boycotting because of “their classist “boycott Walmart” post”: HA! Ha! HA! HA!!!!! Wait, let me rephrase: So, let me get this straight. There are people who, as feminists, see nothing wrong with Walmart? There are people who, as feminists, think that it’s CLASSIST to point out problems with WALMART? Could someone please explain this hilarious logic? It’s CLASSIST to say that people should be paid more than minimum wage with no benefits and not locked inside their jobs at night when they are stocking shelves? And is a feminist utopia one in which we all own cheap shit made by largely female sweatshop workers? And…um…who’s calling who a racist? I mean, yes, there are places where literally the only store is Walmart. And there are people who are underpaid and thus must shop there to buy vital things like food. But to say that pointing out the giant problems with Walmart is to deny these facts and somehow hate on people who have no choice but to shop there is, well, just mindblowingly idiotic.
- In short: I don’t get it. Feministing could be more diverse and inclusive, of course, but I truly get the sense that they are trying pretty damn hard. Maybe they fuck up now and then, but don’t we all? I guess I’ve bought into the great Feministing swindle, but I truly think their hearts are in the right place, which is why I’m a loyal reader and occasional advertiser even when I don’t agree 100% with every single post.
OK, time to turn the record over, see ya!
Without commenting at all on the content of your post…do you /want/ your pingback left on my comment thread?
Sure, why not.
as promised, i have read, and here comes a barrage of thoughts! (forewarning: it’s 12:46am, and i am traveling, and i don’t know if this will be as coherent as i would like. but here we go.)
i am, like, 50% in agreement with the things that you have said. which is better than we expected! i guess it all boils down to the issue of respect, which is where so much of my activism stems from these days. i really, truly try to be all-inclusive in the pro-liberation work that i do. i think it was you (talking about ‘’skinny bitch,” in fact) who said something that i quote all the time now: we can’t throw one group of people up the river to promote the interests of another group. i feel like the quote where courtney used the word ”invalid” — and the myriad complaints that quixotess et al have against feministing along those same lines — is so much the same thing: making a point about the importance of women’s rights while having some pretty callous disregard for the rights of some trans/differently-abled/non-white/etc. women.
i feel like feministing has been called out so many times for these issues, and while they are definitely making strides to correct their behaviors and educate themselves about the complaints being made, there’s just the occasional twinge of hostility in their responses that i can’t get past. jessica really defended her use of a disembodied, thin, white woman on the cover of her book; while that’s totally her choice, i think she should be prepared from some pretty serious criticism to be leveled at her. (and bland/vanilla/fine as she may be, she is a spokesperson for and main player in feministing, and i am not alone in lumping her work in with the site as a whole.) similarly, if site moderators are going to be flippant or dismissive about the concerns of people who are members of their online community, they should be prepared for those people to be hurt, offended, etc. and possibly speak out against feministing.
as for transphobia, i get so nervous when i see the phrase ”trans issues are confusing/complicated for cis-people.” it seems like a convenient ”it’s too hard!” way to get out of actually educating ourselves about others. no doubt women’s issues were disparaged in a similar way, not long ago, and i really feel like we, as feminists, should be pushing trans issues to the forefront of progressive dialog. i mean, one out of every eighteen people who identifies as trans will be killed. that’s ridiculous. and with all the rampant transphobia WITHIN feminist spaces, those of us who recognize the hypocrisy and danger in that should be speaking up loudly — and getting angry when we’re silenced or dismissed.
oh, walmart. i completely agree with you that we can’t just say ”but some people HAVE to shop there” and then let the dialog come to a halt, just as i think we can’t say ”don’t shop there, ever” without considering the real situations in which people live. societal factors like racism, sexism, classism collude to make walmart a necessity for some families — but we need to push for alternatives, not just throw up our hands and say that it’s inevitable, so why fight.
boycotts are such a strange thing (demanding that people whose situations are probably radically different from yours take some action that may or may not be possible for them), this one against feministing included. i really hope people think critically anytime a group is inciting them to do or not do something. we have so many PETA-zombies out there stripping down to their skivvies for ”animal rights,” i feel like if more dialog was had about the concept of boycotts and hierarchy in activism, issues like this wouldn’t feel so much like infighting. it would just be… talk amongst comrades. improvement. change for the better.
i guess that i just expect/expected more. more receptivity to criticism (especially of the constructive variety), more willingness to work toward real change, more humility and less hostility. we DO love to punch ourselves in the eye. we are all so nitpicky with one another that we often forget to even be one-tenth as nitpicky with the billions of other people who actively work against our goals. but speaking as someone with a whole lot of privilege, i really think it’s crucial that we listen to the criticism and concerns of every individual and every group, especially those who are marginalized. if feminist wants to wear that ”biggest feminist website on the internet” mantle, then i guess i expect them to be the leaders on some of these intersectionality issues — maybe that’s idealistic of me. but a girl can dream.
OK, a few responses.
Yeah, I REALLY HATE the cover of Jessica’s book. I meant to mention that before. I think it’s just horrrrrrrible, inexcusable, and ridiculous. So we’re totally in agreement on that.
I think a lot of it boils down to that I read Feministing really really fast and almost never look at the comments, so I just haven’t been noticing the sort of hostility and resistance you’re pointing out. I’m not denying it’s there, and maybe it’s a personal fault that it hasn’t irked me.
“as for transphobia, i get so nervous when i see the phrase ”trans issues are confusing/complicated for cis-people.” it seems like a convenient ”it’s too hard!” way to get out of actually educating ourselves about others.”
Totes. I’ve gotten a lot of hate for my complicated feelings about what I call, in my mean moods, the medicalization of gender. But one of my good friends is a trans dude now (oh look, I’m doing that “I have black friends!” thing!) and we’ve had good chats, and he also says what I do: there are scary aspects with putting your gender into the hands of doctors, (that’s what bothers me, in a nutshell. I wish we lived in a more free society where gender was recognized as a made up construct and no one had to go around cutting up their junk and taking pills forever to fit society’s ideas of…anyway, blah blah blah) and I’m trying to learn about it and be a good ally. But it IS complicated, and I don’t think we can deny that–we just have to make sure that we don’t end the discussion there.
And:
I think you’re right and awesome to want and expect more, from feministing–from everything! What worried me was that I sensed such vitriol and lashing out at Feministing (not from you, just around the internet), instead of, as you said, talk amongst comrades. I’m not saying they are perfect–at all. Or even that I know everything about the issue. Just that, as someone who loves to lash out and knows all too well the pain lashing out at the wrong person can cause, I’m not sure lashing out here is the right response.
Wow, I really like the phrase “lashing out.” Lashing out! It just rolls off the keyboard, doesn’t it?
I wish we lived in a more free society where gender was recognized as a made up construct and no one had to go around cutting up their junk and taking pills forever to fit society’s ideas of…anyway, blah blah blah) and I’m trying to learn about it and be a good ally. But it IS complicated, and I don’t think we can deny that–we just have to make sure that we don’t end the discussion there.
I know that this is a derail; the newest call to boycott Feministing isn’t even the result of transphobia.
But I wonder about this argument, I really do.
Doctors didn’t impose transition on trans people. They withheld it. Trans people demanded it for decades in the face of resistance from doctors–on pain of committment and psychiatric torture. The medical establishment has acted to refuse and restrict access to transition, not to facilitate it. Still does, along with most legislative authorities.
So I’m not sure where this “had” is coming from, given the enormous penalty for transitioning and the huge pressure to ignore any desire to do so, not to mention all the hatred directed not only at trans people but specifically at transitioned bodies. Who’s forcing here? Where’s the social reward for a sex change?
I just wanted to say that it concerns me that you are appropriating the words of a person who physically transitioned to say that people shouldn’t physically transition.
Typically when transsexual people express fear about doctors it’s usually because of the long history of surgeons disrespecting or maiming trans people. Of being denied health care. Of having to go to mental health professionals to get care for a physical concern. Of having to jump through hoops to get letters from people who making a living writing obscene “diagnoses” of you.
Of course it’s scary for a trans person to go to a cis doctor! Thankfully, there are an increasing number of transsexual surgeons, doctors, and therapists on whom we can rely for trans-positive health care.
You made Kathleen Hanna cry.
Nah, she’s a big girl, she can handle mad tons of nuance.
Also! IS NO ONE GOING TO COMMENT ON HOW INSANELY CUTE MY NOODLE CAT IS?
you are brilliant and wonderful.
and noodle is charming!
These are good issues to explore. The genderfucking trans people, that easily seems pretty swell and rad. But I am continually confounded that people intrinsically, inside, identify with a gender outside of their socialization and physical body. I’ve never felt that tied to my gender… of course I’m pretty used to it at this point, but I could have been a boy just as easily if I were switched early on in the socialization process. Do most people feel really, really tied to their genders?
Gender and sex are very different things. You may not be tied to your gender, but I’m willing to bet you’re sticking with your sex.
If I paid for your physical transition, would you be willing to live as a man for the rest of your life? Before you say yes, read As Nature Made Him about David Reimer, a boy who, following a botched circumcision, was raised as a girl. He was miserable, of course, and even despite discovering the truth and living as a man, he committed suicide. Follow up with Self-Made Man by Norah Vincent. Living even part-time as a man literally drove her insane and she checked herself into a mental hospital by the end (the subject of her next book).
In Whipping Girl, Julia Serano writes: “If cissexuals didn’t have a subconscious sex, then sex reassignment would be far more common than it is. … Actors playing transsexuals would go on hormones for a few months in order to make their portrayals more authentic. Criminals and spies would physically transition as a way of going undercover. And contestants on reality shows would be willing to change their sex n the hope of achieving fifteen minutes of fame.”
She continues, “Of course such scenarios see absolutely ridiculous to us. They are unfathomable because, on a profound, subconscious level, we all understand that our physical sex is far more than a superficial shell we inhabit. For me, this is the most frustrating part about cissexuals who express confusion or disbelief as to why transsexuals choose to transition. They are unable to see that their disbelief stems directly from their own experience of feeling at home in the sex they were born into, their own gender concordance. In other words, it is their own subconscious sex–and their inability to recognize it–that makes it difficult for them to understand why anyone would want to change their sex.”
Yes, people are really, really tied to their genders. That is why many cissexual people freak out about trans people. Cis people also have a sense of gender entitlement that allows them to feel that they can define other people’s gender and decide who is and is not a woman, for example. Trans people are viewed a threat to their own sense of gender.
I don’t say this lightly–as a child, I would not have cared if I was a boy. I actually pondered this question, and would imagine what aspects of my personality would have been encouraged and nurtured as a boy. After a few decades, I’m attached to being female, but fifteen years ago, I wouldn’t have minded changing if it was a magical procedure (I hate medical procedures). :)
*But* your example is powerful and I’ll take it for granted that most do have a subconscious gender, which causes them to freak out. Thank you for answering my question seriously–I’m sure these dialogues can get painful. Accepting blurred gender identity is allied with all other movements against “othering”, in my view, so I want to get informed about it.
I just read part of the above quote more closely– I don’t think people avoid surgery and hormones because of subconscious gender identity. Maybe that is a reason, but they’re also very hard on the body (at least in my experience). It’s also hard to change aspects of your personality that have been encouraged or discouraged in all contexts since birth (unlike, say, a professional demeanor or drinking buddy demeanor, which are just “on” part-time). I see the biggest issue as social acceptance, which is what I suppose you’re all working for.
Noah: Yeah. I love being a woman, I love women, I want all the women there can be in the world. I’m a silly essentialist who thinks women are better than men. Done. What I think is most important is: ignoring men and the world they have made, largely, and expanding the definition of “woman” (and “man,” but since I don’t care as much about men I’m not as interested). We may have subconscious gender identifications that cause us to “freak out about trans people,” but there is also the very unsubconscious (that is: conscious) world of patriarchy and the world men have created and that we are all trying so hard to dismantle and change. I’d like to believe all trans dudes are allies in that struggle, but I need a whole hell of a lot more proof.
Sara, you mention “aspects of my personality” and “changing aspects of your personality” and “social acceptance.” Just to be clear, I am talking about physically changing primary and secondary sex characteristics, not personality or gender socialization.
I also think it’s interesting that you translated “subconscious sex” into “subconscious gender identity.” I’m not talking about a subconscious gender identity, but rather one’s feeling that their body ought to have a certain physical form. Gender is social, sex is about our physical bodies. One can change one’s sex without in any way altering one’s gender socialization or role preference.
I think the conflation of the two is why some cissexual people can’t understand trans people. Cissexual people can only see external gender roles and are often unaware of people’s internal sense of sex, which may or may not correspond with one’s body. For transsexual people it’s mainly “I should/n’t have breasts” not “I want to have a certain gender role therefore I should/n’t have breasts.”
As Serano put it: “After twenty years of exploration and experimentation, I eventually reached the conclusion that my female subconscious sex had nothing to do with gender roles, femininity, or sexual expression–it was about the personal relationship I had with my own body.”
(that’s a reply to comment #9 up there!!!)
Yay for Susan Griffin! Lagusta, what a well-read cat you have. Was Cleo off somewhere with Mary Daly?
I am tempted to set up a little photo shoot with Cleo and Quintessence, because yes, she is a giant fan of Mary Daly, how did you know???
Hmm, I have a lot of reading to do to inform myself. The idea of surgery and hormones is frightening to me on a visceral level, though. It seems like buying into society’s expectations as well as a false sense of binary gender. Why does a woman have to have breasts or vagina, when not all women do? Were all trans people doomed until modern tech was invented? How it is different from body hatred in general? People kill themselves for having the wrong physicality in all sorts of ways.
Maybe this isn’t the place to continue the discussion, though. Trans people need respect and understanding, but there are diverse modes of thought within and I’m not seeing some of the particulars (maybe because within the community there is not consensus? Stuff I have read was not pro-surgery or gender binaries, as you can tell). Feministing is lame, at any rate.
Hmm, and also how does this jive with movements like “body acceptance” and “fat acceptance”? It seems like body hatred–really strong, suicide-inducing body hatred, at times.
If gender binarism is the problem, why just SWITCH genders? Why not DISMANTLE gender itself? When I understand that, I think I will be able to be a much better ally to trans people.
Well, maybe gender binarism isn’t the problem, if by “problem” you mean, “What trans people want to solve by transitioning.” It’s definitely a problem, and one that trans people suffer from as well–and not just because they can’t behave however they please and still be considered proper men and women. But it seems not to be what transitioning people refer to when they talk about being unhappy.
My situation has been different in a lot of ways, but to the extent that I can count as an example: It seems like there are aspects of femininity that you enjoy a whole bunch, like making cute little truffles. It seems like there are aspects of femininity that bug the living fuck out of you, like social inferiority and social definitions thereof. It seems like there are aspects of femininity that you have no great use for, like (I don’t know) flamenco and Nair.
I have my own examples; I want freedom. I want the right to define womanhood on my own terms, without apology. I know that I don’t have that right, and it causes me a great deal of pain sometimes. I have felt like an improper or inadequate woman often in my life, and I know how much that hurts.
But gender identity, and the discomfort that arose from being stuck in the wrong gender, felt very distinct from that. It hurt to be a successful man rather than any sort of woman. It hurt to learn that I would have to become a woman instead of simply being one–and it hurt in ways that had nothing to do with wanting to be masculine or unconventionally feminine.
There were people in my life telling me that I’d have to use femininity like some kind of pink tarp until the day my painted toes curled under, so there was definitely a lot of grief over my failure to be good at womanhood. But not being one was a different problem, one that had nothing to do with self-expression. If I had wanted to be a different kind of man, I would have kept on being a man. And if I had wanted to be androgynous, I would have become androgynous. (And maybe I will become more androgynous or butch, as a woman.)
One of the trans commenters says above that maybe it’s just unexplainable. I don’t know if that’s true. I do believe that I had strong feelings, and that no amount of contrary belief swayed them.
(I wonder where WordPress will stick this response? Let’s find out:)
I don’t know if I agree with the distinction between this:
I know lots of people who enjoy fucking with people’s ideas of what a woman or man looks like and are challenging assumptions about gender identity on a daily basis. That, I think, is what will bring about a world with a more complex understanding of gender.
…and this:
Of course trans people are free and should be free to do whatever they want to bring their insides and outsides more in alignment with each other, I just personally think it sucks that they are correcting a societal problem by changing themselves.
Trans people whose presentations match up with people’s ideas about how men and women behave are maybe somewhat safer. Transition etches second-class citizenship into your permanent record, though, and takes away your privacy forever, so maybe not much.
But why is the first group described as fighting social pressure and the second group described as giving in? I mean, why is the important thing fucking with vs. getting fucked over by?
When I walked out of the house in a suit (or, at other times in my life, a dress), I didn’t think, “Ha! I’m gonna go terrorize the norms!” I thought, “I am wearing my favorite suit.” (Or, “I am wearing a pretty dress.”) I know people whose identity is actually based on fucking with other people’s ideas about gender. I know a lot more people who are just different. Most people do things to make themselves happy, not to make total strangers pissed off. The two are related, but they’re not the same thing.
Just in response to your original statement “if you have specific examples of the perceived horrible treatment of trans women on the site, I’d like to see them”, here’s one.
For an explanation as to why, see here. When a post sets up a situation that practically solicits transphobic comments, I think it’s entirely appropriate to blame the site, particularly when it is coupled with a failure to intervene in the comments.
(I’m not even gonna try to nest this–I hope it’s okay if I respond to Noah’s last comment, even though you’ve said you’re busy.)
I agree with this comment:
“Typically when transsexual people express fear about doctors it’s usually because of the long history of surgeons disrespecting or maiming trans people. Of being denied health care. Of having to go to mental health professionals to get care for a physical concern. Of having to jump through hoops to get letters from people who making a living writing obscene “diagnoses” of you.”
I think, as well, that transphobic attitudes towards transitioned bodies often incorporate the idea that trans bodies are inferior: unnatural, damaged, artificial. Speaking of Mary Daly: she described trans women as the modern equivalent of Frankenstein’s monster.
I have a body that was permanently changed by transition. (The permanent changes are minor, admittedly.) Since re/de-transition, I have had to deal with a lot of shame and self-hatred around those changes. This is not related to pain or physical disability; I would say at this point that it is not based on dissonance between gender identity and gender presentation, either. These feelings have to do with the idea that transition is mutilating rather than neutral or enhancing, and a transitioned body is a damaged body. That idea doesn’t come from trans people themselves.
Hey everyone,
I just had a chance to really sit and digest all these awesome comments. I don’t really have much to say, except that I will keep on learning and trying to expand my perspectives, and that I’m really happy we had this chat. And of course, if others want to keep chatting, please do.
“If gender binarism is the problem, why just SWITCH genders? Why not DISMANTLE gender itself? When I understand that, I think I will be able to be a much better ally to trans people.”
I think it’s very easy for cisgendered people to ask that question without really considering what that entails for transgendered people on a day to day basis. Dismantling the gender binary is a noble and valid goal, but it’s a long term one. And you know what? In our hypothetical post-gender society, I would probably still be really fucking unhappy as a female.
I wrote a lot more than this, but I ended up erasing it because I usually really like your blog and I only came here today to find a cake recipe and instead I got sucked into this virtual black hole of cisprivilege and NO UR A FASCIST!! and now I am frustrated and angry and I still don’t have any goddamn cake.
Oh honey. I’m sorry you’ve lost your esteem for me. I had this essay online where I, I thought, worked out that point in a more complicated way and acknowledged that the work of radically transforming society is a hard task to put on one person/group of people (though if course it’s work we all should be doing)….but it caused a lot of trouble, so it’s gone now.
I understand that it’s terrifying to be criticized, in your own blog no less. It’s even more terrifying to be constantly told that you, as a group, are wrong, stupid, disgusting, misled, and should just focus on actually important issues (because really, trans issues don’t really matter, as we all know).
If gender binarism is the problem, why just SWITCH genders? Why not DISMANTLE gender itself? When I understand that, I think I will be able to be a much better ally to trans people.
Isn’t it nice when cisgendered people tell transsexuals what the real problem is?
I’m happy to think that my little corner of the internet can be a place where I don’t have to be terrified of saying the wrong thing and thus am constantly censoring myself, because I truly am interested in exploring these issues.
I wonder if you’d be saying the same thing in a blog by a guy spouting how feminists are doing themselves a disservice by focussing on women’s issues, and should instead focus on men’s issues – and then, when he’s inevitably criticized, goes on to lament how oppressed he is and how he has to constantly censor himself from the evil internet PC police that forces him not to be a sexist douchebag, and how nice it’d be to finally have a place where he can spout his thinking in peace (like everywhere else in the world?).
What, you’re saying that what the guy was saying is different? No, it’s not. It’s exactly the same thing. It’s nice that you think the gender issue is more important for you. Really. It has just very little to do with the needs of most transsexual people.
Do not get me wrong. I like your blog. I even like a lot of your comments on issues, take the Wal Mart one as an example. And of course the kitten pictures are downright adorable and make me squee.
That makes the trans thing worse, though. It sticks out like a single rotten fruit in a nice, fresh fruit salad you prepared. Sadly, the rotten taste still spoils the salad :(
Yeah, i should have been more specific. It’s not that I think doctors and the allopathic medical establishment are forcing transition, not at all. I don’t think trans people are being forced to do anything (and of course this is a good thing), except that in a patriarchal and misogynist society we ALL are forced to choose a gender and visibly align with it. THAT is what stinks, in my mind. That’s the root problem. I know lots of people who enjoy fucking with people’s ideas of what a woman or man looks like and are challenging assumptions about gender identity on a daily basis. That, I think, is what will bring about a world with a more complex understanding of gender. Of course trans people are free and should be free to do whatever they want to bring their insides and outsides more in alignment with each other, I just personally think it sucks that they are correcting a societal problem by changing themselves. Of course, I want to say again that I have no issue with transition, it’s merely that I wish society was more evolved.
Oh, that’s a reply to Piny above. Why is WordPress so dumb about comments?
So you cultivate a feminine appearance simply because a patriarchal and misogynist society forced you to align with that?
Of course you should be free to dress however you want, I just personally think it sucks that you have to conform to a social norm that causes you to wear clothes and hair that accentuate your female body. I want to say again that I have no issue with femininity, it’s merely that I society was more evolved.
No? Consider then that trans people physically transition for the exact same reason that you have long hair and wear dresses. Because it makes them feel comfortable in their own skin–not because anyone forced them to.
This comment assumed that physically transitioning is a problem. Isn’t people’s hatred toward those who do the problem? Isn’t the rejection of trans women as women the problem? Isn’t it rigid gender binarism that causes us to think that transitioning from one sex to another is a problem in the first place?
…Because it was invented by Satan? I wish I were kidding.
I know that trans people–like everyone, it’s true–do feel pressure to fit into various binary schemes of gender. But I think that a lot of those contain the idea that transness is a violation–no matter how it’s expressed. One of the common arguments in the Feministing thread was that trans womanhood was categorically dishonest–that is, not real womanhood.
So I feel like there’s a lot of revolutionary potential in respecting the desire to transition and its outcome.
I also don’t know if I agree that transition is only based in a desire to be correct according to social definitions of gender. Not only because it doesn’t accomplish that goal, but because so many trans people have preferences that don’t track a need for social acceptance. Genderfuck trans people aren’t less likely to want to physically transition, or to have surgery.
Hmm, OK, it’s a good point that people transition for all kinds of reasons, gotcha on that. I don’t know–I don’t claim to have any answers, and my feelings are constantly shifting and evolving. I’m collecting information and trying to respect everyone’s choices along the way.
I don’t think I’ll ever not feel sad about FTM trans people, just a tiny tiny bit. I think a lot of mainstreamy cis feminist women feel the same and won’t admit it. It feels like a failure of feminism that women want to escape their bodies. And yes, yes, yes, they aren’t women, I know that. And I hope to someday not feel this way…as I say, it’s complicated.
A FTM transman really opened my eyes to the issue when I realized that he has always been attracted to men—as a man. That is, he has always been attracted to gay men. That is a pretty damn hard place for a woman to be, and I of course celebrate his transition and ability to finally attract partners who are attracted to him.
Though I was a women’s studies major in college, a lot of my experience with on the ground feminism was at a feminist restaurant run by radical lesbian feminists who are themselves, in their 70s, just now adjusting to these ideas as well. They are pretty vehemently against trans women using women’s bathrooms, for example…but their ideas are evolving.
The problem that I see is that the internet has created this culture where if you disagree even the slightest bit, or admit that you are struggling with wrapping your mind around any of these issues, you are vehemently hated on. It’s very tiring.
I’m happy to think that my little corner of the internet can be a place where I don’t have to be terrified of saying the wrong thing and thus am constantly censoring myself, because I truly am interested in exploring these issues.
Well, I found myself needing to escape manhood. There were many feelings of deep discomfort associated with the body I didn’t want any longer. They didn’t have anything to do with manhood as a group identity, though–it was just a deep sense of personal unsuitability. It wasn’t a bad place, just not where I was supposed to be. I mean, I love cosmology, and stand in awe of astronomers, but I can barely do simple math: this is a vocation I cannot get inside. And even now that my feelings are more ambiguous, they aren’t any less strong.
I understand that a lot of women and feminists feel some sense of loss when confronted with the concept of trans male transition.
I haven’t noticed much of its logical counterpart, though: joy at the idea that there are all these new women out there, really eager to live their lives as women and be celebrated as women. In fact–not to include you in this, just in general–many of the feminists who mourn trans men post-transition seem pretty revolted by the existence of trans women, even opposed to the very idea.
In terms of echo chambers…I agree that things can get very polarized when two communities or sub-communities are interacting. There’s another side to that: the internet is where minority groups are exposed to polarized bigotry, and where echo chambers often act to reinforce rather than explode it. Feministing is a place where feminists of all stripes can talk, but it’s also a place where a trans women writing about sex can read fifty comments comparing her gender to an STD. Those commenters are acting as a group, and cooperating to reinforce a viewpoint at the expense of an outsider.
Piny: “I understand that a lot of women and feminists feel some sense of loss when confronted with the concept of trans male transition.
I haven’t noticed much of its logical counterpart, though: joy at the idea that there are all these new women out there, really eager to live their lives as women and be celebrated as women.”
You sort of blew my mind with that. Food for thought!
Let me ask a very basic, probably stupid question here that I have never understood:
If gender binarism is the problem, why just SWITCH genders? Why not DISMANTLE gender itself? When I understand that, I think I will be able to be a much better ally to trans people.
I think the simple answer is: it’s easier than changing all of society. And that’s perfectly acceptable. But I still think it’s only the simple answer.
That’s what I was just going to type after reading the phrase “gender binarism.” You are, as usual, one step ahead and more articulate than me.
(I’ll type more when I’m not surrounded by toddlers and reading with The Sound of Music blasting.)
Many cisgender women I know have found reading Julia Serano’s Whipping Girl: A transsexual woman on sexism and the scapegoating of femininity to be profoundly transformative. I think it would answer your question.
Note that it was you who stated that the root problem facing transsexuals is gender binarism, not me. I just said that gender binarism leads to discomfort with transsexual people.
Gender binarism isn’t the problem. Discomfort with one’s physical sex is the main issue for most transsexual folks. Plenty of transsexual people transition and then live as butch lesbians and flaming trans fags, flouting both gender and sexual orientation norms.
Pretty much by definition, cissexual people will never be able to understand transsexual people (unless like in the examples I gave above, they are forced to be a sex they are not). Allies can never fully understand another’s experience. But all allies can respect the experiences that other people have and trust that other people know what’s best for them.
As a person on the MTF spectrum, I have to echo what piny and bee have said. Not all trans people have a problem with gender binarism. And if your comments about women are any indication, you’re attached to binarism too (which isn’t necessarily a bad thing).
And yeah, the medical establishment did have to be dragged kicking and screaming into giving us some kind of morphological freedom. Changing one’s body, contrary to what some technophobes may assert, isn’t always destructive or an act of self-hate. There are a lot of factors involved in that decision, including a person’s brain architecture from birth (which may or may not match up with their sex), and yes, socialization, because we can’t really tease apart mind from body.
But be careful with your words, because you have the privilege of being gender normative and that’s something that is easy to misuse. Don’t fall into the trap of universalizing your own experience when other people are different in ways we don’t even fully understand yet. And remember, there is no such thing as a collective brain. We lose something when we try to hammer each person’s unique experience into pre-fab theories, gender related or otherwise.
Sincerely,
a non-op genderqueer